Occupy Wall Street

Mostly dank memes.
scorch-
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by scorch- »

BrentMusburger wrote:“The wealth of the computer era and other innovations have made this generation so prosperous that it’s hard for them to remember what life was like not long ago.”

Ohio State University economist Richard Steckel tries to put this in perspective for his new students. “To imagine what living standards were not long ago here and are in much of the world, Steckel suggests they turn off their electricity. To really understand, he says, shut off the plumbing.”
"Be happy with your lot because it could be worse." Not sure how this relates to anything other than a discussion of how educators can optimally encourage ignorance and apathy in their pupils.
The term "irrational exuberance" derives from some words that Alan Greenspan, chairman of the Federal Reserve Board in Washington, used in a black-tie dinner speech entitled " The Challenge of Central Banking in a Democratic Society" before the American Enterprise Institute at the Washington Hilton Hotel December 5, 1996. Fourteen pages into this long speech, which was televised live on C-SPAN, he posed a rhetorical question: "But how do we know when irrational exuberance has unduly escalated asset values, which then become subject to unexpected and prolonged contractions as they have in Japan over the past decade?" He added that "We as central bankers need not be concerned if a collapsing financial asset bubble does not threaten to impair the real economy, its production, jobs and price stability."
So, he says that the people setting interest rates don't need to be concerned with the devaluation of overpriced assets when it isn't related to an actual depression of the real economy. That would be applicable in cases of not-an-actual-depression, right? Are you implying that this economic recession/depression is imagined?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by mg_ »

I guess it is good business to choke of those who demand the things your produce so they can't buy your products anymore.


Something about myopia and short-term thinking yadi yadi yada...
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by BrentMusburger »

"Be happy with your lot because it could be worse."
No, it's more like Americans have become a spoiled and entitled lot that don't understand how good they had it, and still do have it. Look at how a kid grew up in the 1940's vs how a kid grew up in the 1990s'. It's night and day.
So, he says that the people setting interest rates don't need to be concerned with the devaluation of overpriced assets when it isn't related to an actual depression of the real economy. That would be applicable in cases of not-an-actual-depression, right? Are you implying that this economic recession/depression is imagined?
That's not at all what he was saying. He was asking (I would say warning) that if a real estate bubble was being created, and this bubble was fueling consumption that was not sustainable...."irrational exuberence" that it was going to lead to a situation like the " lost (two) decades" in Japan---speculative bubbles pop and cause major problems in the REAL economy---jobs gone, production/construction falling off a cliff, and price instability (deflationary spirals).

Of course, he retired in 2007, one year before the collapse happened at the end of 2008. Ben Bernanke, someone who spent his entire life writing about and researching the Great Depression, was brought in to contain the damage that they knew full well was coming.

Everything he wrote about years ago that he thought would save us has been tried, and either failed or did not work as effectively as he expected it would. Now, we're treading water much like what happened in the great depression----there's no bullets left to be fired with fiscal stimulous or monetary policy....If a second wave hits now...like then...we're in for a rude surprise.
I guess it is good business to choke of those who demand the things your produce so they can't buy your products anymore.

Something about myopia and short-term thinking yadi yadi yada...
If anything it's the exact opposite of short-term thinking. It's a long-term vision.

The American consumer base may shrinking, but they've created a world wide market with globalism and as those markets mature, they can simply start to sell consumer goods to that emerging middle class as well as Americans. Those people will start to want new clothes, shoes, tv's, video games, and the like. The fortune 500 are doing incredibly well right now, mostly fueled by increasing market share overseas---and slashing costs domestically, which is accelerating the transition.

As the dollar devalues by intentional (loose monetary policy) and forced means (horrible fiscal management), Americans will continue to take up less and less of the world pie. The problem is a social expirement of this magnitude (essentially taking away the high standard Americans have come accustomed to) has a high potential to end in disaster----the social classes turn against each other...rich vs poor...young vs old....government worker vs private sector worker and eventually nation vs nation when governments seek to stave off their collapse by blaming a foreign enemy for their woes-----central banks create massive wars....and the anger is building day by day.
We often hear the phrase, "Saved by WWII" when talking about the Great Depression and the 1930s. Back then, the world was in disarray, based on economic constraints rooted in WWI reparations, the expansion and bursting of the stock market, and worldwide abject poverty.

Saved by a war that cost 60 million lives? What was the option? The starvation of the poorest had begun in Eastern Europe, and revolution was in the air in the United States. No one can contemplate the extent of the disaster that is coming now, since we don't conceptualize WWII as being caused by economics.

Perhaps it's time to promote this explanation, so it would be clearer just what kind of a precipice we are now looking over.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by dane »

mg_ wrote:I guess it is good business to choke of those who demand the things your produce so they can't buy your products anymore.


Something about myopia and short-term thinking yadi yadi yada...

Always emerging markets overseas though!!!!


Sorry Brent but your argument that "shit can get worse, people take it for granted" isn't very good and doesn't make it ok.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by rehpyc »

excited for a global recession of 2012
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by Airnick15 »

Anybody more scared by the National Defense Authorization Act than any economic policy in this country?
mg_
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by mg_ »

Airnick15 wrote:Anybody more scared by the National Defense Authorization Act than any economic policy in this country?
Anyone think they're not related and part of the same agenda?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by squatta_leader »

mg_ wrote:Anyone think they're not related and part of the same agenda?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by BrentMusburger »

Sorry Brent but your argument that "shit can get worse, people take it for granted" isn't very good and doesn't make it ok.
Actually, it is. Life isn't easy and it never was---outside of about two times in world history--the 20's and 90's--both of which were followed by severe contractions because the central banks allowed the party to get out of control.

When was the easy and fun time?

The 80's had two financial crisis' at the start and end of the decade.

Was it the 70's with double digit inflation, gas shortages, and high unemployment?

The 60's with race riots and Vietnam tearing the country apart?

Was it the 40's with rations and a world war?

Was it the 30's during the height of the Depression?

Going back any further isn't really worth it because we know the standard of living sucks--as we lose cars, electricity, pretty much all home products like fridges, microwaves, and the like.




What we're expirencing now is the pain that needed to be brought on to stop the insanity. Deflationary spirals are incredibly hard on the world.



Savings rate is being boosted. Company balance sheets are being strengened. The value of the dollar is going down to pay down debt and to close the trade gap---and slow/reverse hemoraging of jobs----but this comes at the price of price increases in essentials like food, gas, education, healthcare. They're artifically boosting the stock market to convince the boomers to retire and open up a huge slot in the work force.

It's going to take time---most likely 10-15 years--and we're in about year 4 or 5.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by BrentMusburger »

rehpyc wrote:excited for a global recession of 2012
While the world press has focused on Iran's plans to move ahead with enriching uranium, Tehran continues to wage economic war against the U.S. dollar behind the scenes.

Tehran has reached a decision to end all oil sales in dollars

April 2011: Iran inaugurated the third phase of oil bourse with vast opportunities for foreign companies. All types of contracts in the oil bourse will be based upon global standards of purchase and sale and in accordance with Islamic rules.
As you can see, it continues to hammer the United States because they have the second largest reserves in the world. But don't worry, we're working on a plan to convince them of the right choice.

The Iranians had the nerve to "steal" our spy plane last week, we're pushing for tougher sanctions, and concern is growing more and more about those dreaded WMD's!!! The Folks in London and New York will have us "fighting for their freedom" if they don't reverse course soon.
Yesterday, another brick was taken out of the dollar's fundament. China and Russia announced they were quitting the dollar and instead going to trade in renminbi and rubels from now on. The announcement couldn't be less pungent. It was made by both countries' top officials, Premier Wen Jiabao and Premier Putin, not just their finance ministers or some lower ranked politicians. All of this on the Eve of the Thanksgiving Day, a day very special to America

They say a butterfly can set off a storm. But these were two elephants thumping and making the earth shake. At the same time, the Fed has very quietly become the biggest holder of U.S. debt. Right. Not China. Not Japan. Ben.

Somebody is getting upset with the dollar. When more and more countries join the crowd and gradually start refusing it, the times when America was buying up the world's production with suitcases of freshly printed greenbacks will be over. And stuff will become expensive.
It's going to be tougher with these two~
In the short run, the issuer of a fiat reserve currency can accrue great economic benefits. In the long run, it poses a threat to the country issuing the world currency. In this case that's the United States. As long as foreign countries take our dollars in return for real goods, we come out ahead.

It sounds like a great deal for everyone, except the time will come when our dollars — due to their depreciation — will be received less enthusiastically or even be rejected by foreign countries. That could create a whole new ballgame and force us to pay a price for living beyond our means and our production. The shift in sentiment regarding the dollar has already started, but the worst is yet to come.

For the most part the true victims aren't aware of how they pay the bills. The license to create money out of thin air allows the bills to be paid through price inflation. American citizens, as well as average citizens of Japan, China, and other countries suffer from price inflation, which represents the “tax” that pays the bills for our military adventures. That is, until the fraud is discovered, and the foreign producers decide not to take dollars nor hold them very long in payment for their goods. Everything possible is done to prevent the fraud of the monetary system from being exposed to the masses who suffer from it. If oil markets replace dollars with Euros, it would in time curtail our ability to continue to print, without restraint, the world's reserve currency.

It is an unbelievable benefit to us to import valuable goods and export depreciating dollars. The exporting countries have become addicted to our purchases for their economic growth. This dependency makes them allies in continuing the fraud, and their participation keeps the dollar's value artificially high. If this system were workable long term, American citizens would never have to work again. We too could enjoy “bread and circuses” just as the Romans did, but their gold finally ran out and the inability of Rome to continue to plunder conquered nations brought an end to her empire.

The same thing will happen to us if we don't change our ways. Though we don't occupy foreign countries to directly plunder, we nevertheless have spread our troops across 130 nations of the world. Our intense effort to spread our power in the oil-rich Middle East is not a coincidence. But unlike the old days, we don't declare direct ownership of the natural resources — we just insist that we can buy what we want and pay for it with our paper money. Any country that challenges our authority does so at great risk.

Using force to compel people to accept money without real value can only work in the short run. It ultimately leads to economic dislocation, both domestic and international, and always ends with a price to be paid.
But really, this is all Bush and Obama's fault and our tax code!!!!!!! Maybe we can blame some CEO's and rich athletes too!
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